Hi!
Kagi had a rough couple months on the PR side, and a comment from another Lemmy user arguing that they aren’t using Google’s index set me off… because I had just read a couple weeks ago on their own websites that they primarily use Google’s search index.
Lo and behold, that user was “right”: No mention of Google whatsoever on Kagi’s Search Sources page. If that’s all you had to go off of, you’d be excused for thinking they are only using their internal index to power their web search since that’s what they now strongly imply. The only “reference” to external indexes is this nebulous sentence:
Our search results also include anonymized API calls to all major search result providers worldwide, specialized search engines like Marginalia, and sources of vertical information […]
… Unless one goes to check that pesky Wayback Machine. Here is the same page from March 2024, which I will copy/paste here for posterity:
Search Sources
You can think of Kagi as a “search client,” working like an email client that connects to various indexes and sources, including ours, to find relevant results and package them into a superior, secure, and privacy-respecting search experience, all happening automatically and in a split-second for you.
External
Our data includes anonymized API calls to traditional search indexes like Google, Yandex, Mojeek and Brave, specialized search engines like Marginalia, and sources of vertical information like Wolfram Alpha, Apple, Wikipedia, Open Meteo, Yelp, TripAdvisor and other APIs. Typically every search query on Kagi will call a number of different sources at the same time, all with the purpose of bringing the best possible search results to the user.
For example, when you search for images in Kagi, we use 7 different sources of information (including non-typical sources such as Flickr and Wikipedia Commons), trying to surface the very best image results for your query. The same is also the case for Kagi’s Video/News/Podcasts results.
Internal
But most importantly, we are known for our unique results, coming from our web index (internal name - Teclis) and news index (internal name - TinyGem). Kagi’s indexes provide unique results that help you discover non-commercial websites and “small web” discussions surrounding a particular topic. Kagi’s Teclis and TinyGem indexes are both available as an API.
We do not stop there and we are always trying new things to surface relevant, high-quality results. For example, we recently launched the Kagi Small Web initiative which platforms content from personal blogs and discussions around the web. Discovering high quality content written without the motive of financial gain, gives Kagi’s search results a unique flavor and makes it feel more humane to use.
Of course, running an index is crazy expensive. By their own admission, Teclis is narrowly focused on “non-commercial websites and ‘small web’ discussions”. Mojeek indexes nowhere near enough things to meaningfully compete with Google, and Yandex specializes in the Russosphere. Bing (Google’s only meaningful direct indexing competitor) is not named so I assume they don’t use it. So it’s not a leap to say that Google powers most of English-speaking web searches, just like Bing powers almost all search alternatives such as DDG.
I don’t personally mind that they use Google as an index (it makes the most sense and it’s still the highest-quality one out there IMO, and Kagi can’t compete with Google’s sheer capital on the indexing front). But I do mind a lot that they aren’t being transparent about it anymore. This is very shady and misleading, which is a shame because Kagi otherwise provides a valuable and higher quality service than Google’s free search does.
This is disappointing. Due to Kagi requiring an account and billing I would say transparency should be vitally important for a them since privacy concerns are going to be a large reason a lot of people are looking to switch from Google in the first place. It’s always a concern brought up when search alternatives are discussed in forums and the “just trust me BRO” is going to start to ring kind of hollow if they play little games like this.
“Just trust me bro” is always bullshit with capitalism. On a long emough time line for-profit orgs will always expand to double/triple/quadruple/etc dip into their customer base. It might as well be a fundamental law of economics at this point.
If they are allowed to change the privacy rules for profit: Eventually, they will.
They’re either anonymizing your searches to the downstream index or they aren’t.
Does seeing an itemized list of indexes used change that?
Our data includes anonymized API calls to traditional search indexes like Google, Yandex, Mojeek and Brave, specialized search engines like Marginalia, and sources of vertical information like Wolfram Alpha, Apple, Wikipedia, Open Meteo, Yelp, TripAdvisor and other APIs
I don’t want to be that guy, but technically they said they are using traditional indexes like Google, not that they are in fact using Google. But I guess that is splitting hairs.
Also, maybe they just dropped Google from their indexes? And what’s more: Why does it matter if they are using Google at all, when the results are satisfying?Knowing which indexes they are using exactly would be nice to know, though.
Our search results also include anonymized API calls to all major search result providers worldwide
When I read this, it doesn’t tell me they don’t use Google. Quite the opposite. It says all, that immediately tells me Google is among them.
I don’t care whose indexes they use so long as the results are good. The problem isn’t the index, it’s how the contents get prioritized and presented. Kagi happens to do so well for me.
This will never stop being relevant about the Kagi CEO:
https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770
Memory-holing Google tracks…
He offered to start a conversation about the blog post and give his perspective. The only thing I see here is the author refusing to stand on their post.
I didn’t read every little bit as well, but that was my take away as well. I saw an emotially invested CEO who could not bear seeing his baby dragged through the mud, and so he wanted to provide a counterpoint to what he saw as misinformation and accusations, but in a polite professional manner. My first instinct would be that he would have been wasting his time with that, but seeing as his comments got posted and they make a more convincing level headed argument then the accusations, maybe it was worth it.
I agree with this perspective. The CEO felt like the more reasonable guy here who wanted to respectfully and professionally clear his name through polite conversation. And the writer here seemed very aggressive. The line of questioning was outwardly hostile and accusatory with literally nothing for good evidence.
Oh interesting, I never knew about that side of Kagi. The fact the company is focused so hard on AI is a red flag. I don’t think I’ll renew my subscription when it comes up later this year, given how erratic their plans seem.
What service will you use instead?
-a Kagi subscriber
AI bad now?
Genuine question, why is AI bad/concerning?
I don’t see how this is relevant to this at all.
Eh, yeah ya do. It clearly speaks to the question of how honest and forthcoming the CEO, & by extension the company culture, is about which sources they use. The CEO has a history of the kind of interactions they had with the poster
How many CEOs do you know who don’t act like they’re made of solid gold?
Honestly, if the search results are good, anonymized, and consistent, I’m not worried about not using Google’s index. In all honesty, I’m much prefer it did NOT use Google. The further I can distance myself from their shady SEO/SEM practices, results stuffing, large site favoring, and monetization techniques, the better.
Ya, like wats even the issue here?
The issue is that they’re using it but no longer being explicit about that use.
Our search results also include anonymized API calls to all major search result providers worldwide…
Google search is the 800 lb gorilla in this space. When I read that, there’s no doubt in my mind that it includes Google.
Sure but given that their previous language explicitly mentions Google why remove that unless they’re trying to make people think that maybe they didn’t use Google. It’s a shady change, from a company whose CEO is already doing somewhat unhinged things.
Anyone who reads that and doesn’t think google is probably the type who thought incognito mode meant google wasn’t tracking you anymore.
And what unhinged things are you referring to?
Yeah, I’ve seen that and it’s overblown.
I don’t think they tried to hide that they were using Google, but rather than they are using Brave, because many people were upset about that. They probably just decided to stop naming specific indexes.
I wonder if they are preparing to stop using it. That could be a benign reason for the change in wording.
I unsubscribed and deleted my Kagi account mainly because of their attitude to data privacy but also because of their nutjob CEO. When I subscribed I was excited because I thought they wanted to build a proper competitor to other search engine operators, but they are actually just another company that tries to shove AI into absolutely everything. So, after realising that they are an untrustworthy company full of tech maximalists trying to build the torment nexus, I immediately canceled my subscription and moved back to duckduckgo and marginalia. Maybe I give SearXNG another go, it’s just that selfhosting is a bit of a bother.
Guys just use SearXNG . Stop relying on paid services from companies.
I agree. I was paying Kagi a few months ago but then started self hosting a SearXNG instance. The nicest thing about it is that I can replace links and select the engines I want to use. It’s very customizable.
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I’m just gonna block the word kagi on my lemmy client. I’ve been seeing a trend of people trying to create a big deal out of non issues trying to sell kagi for a long time. The amount of votes and some of the replies are always sus too.
It’s really disingenuous to mud sling people with a different view by implying they themselves don’t exist/are astroturfing/are bots.
I’m a real human who decided to use their service for kicks and actually like some of the benefits and control over the results compared to other search engines.
Especially when I’m doing research, which is usually half of all my time searching anyways.
Enough that I decided to pay for the service. I’m happy with it and want to share that happiness with others. Are you saying that because I liked a service that I can’t seem to get anywhere else I’m now the bad guy? Because I like something and want to share it with others, that’s bad?
Is the alternative that you might prefer to be corporate astroturfing instead of organic discussion and growth? Like, really, seriously, what’s the alternative here if people talking about and sharing something they like is not acceptable?
The fact that they specifically mentioned those search engines, when I checked back in late March, was a selling point for me.
In not sure I would have even tried it if I only saw the new wording.
Searches are good on Kagi though, but Brave Search Premium is trying to catch my attention.
I know Brave browser has had a lot of controversy in the past regarding their business practices, including rolling out their own crypto-coin.
They apparently make the really bold claim of using their own index exclusively. If true (given their track record I am not 100 % willing to accept that as truth without seeing some independent analysis), that would do wonders for the search ecosystem. I’m definitely interested to see how it pans out.
I was under the impression brave was just google with extra steps.
Guys what happened to self hosting searxng
It still requires the use of Google/Bing/etc API calls. There’s literally no way to truly self host a web indexing search engine without sacrificing your privacy or paying millions of dollars.
You can use YaCy, which can be run as an independent self-hosted index (in “Local” mode), where it will index sites visited as part of web crawls that you initiate, or you can run it as part of a decentralized peer-to-peer network of indexes.
YaCy has its own search UI but you can also set up SearXNG to use it.
I have mentioned this software a while back here in lemmy and someone with actual expertise mentioned running YaCy on noncommercial hardware becomes untenable after a certain duration due to poor quality network, incompatible indexing algorithms, massive database, and search query response.
You can do it, or use one of the instances at searx.space
Searx is great, it’s all I use, but it’s a meta, there is not a ‘Searx Index’ which is what this is about.
there is not a ‘Searx Index’ which is what this is about.
There’s YaCy, which includes a search index (which can be independent or can join a P2P network of indexes), web crawler, and web ui for searching. It can also be added as a SearXNG engine.
Hi! Great post, good research with sources, great initiative, thank you. 🙏
Maybe they should give away some T-shirts to advertise their non-affiliation.
Them using Google indexes anonymously isn’t intending to solve the problem you think it is. It’s more about incentive structures. Google’s “free” search optimizes for ad revenue now. The API access doesn’t as much, and Kagi certainly doesn’t have an ad incentive. So privacy is a nice bonus, but the real benefit is a customer serving incentive structure.
This video by TechAltar is great and goes into why Bing/Google are often the backend for alternative search engines, such as DDG (Bing), Ecosia (Bing), and Startpage (Google).
An unrelated-ish question I know, but how much would Kagi’s index have costed?
By my calculations, at least $50.
